Karan Thapar: But, five people killed on the streets of Patna in broad daylight?

Nitish Kumar: I don't know. I have not seen the figures and neither have I seen the figures of the earlier government.

Karan Thapar: But, can people feel safe with such figures?

Nitish Kumar: People do feel safe in Patna now. You go out and ask people on the roads, they do feel safe.

Karan Thapar: They feel safe or have they got used to the crime situation?

Nitish Kumar: Not at all. A number of programmes have been organised in Patna. The Apicon conference in which more than 4,000 physicians from all over the country participated was organised in Patna. It was a very prestigious conference and it was well attended. These people came to Patna after the change of the government. People were enthused, they came in large numbers along with their family members and they returned happily.

Karan Thapar: Do you claim credit for improving the law and order situation?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, why not.

Karan Thapar: But, do you think you have done enough?

Nitish Kumar: Security in Bihar has improved considerably. There is no sense of fear. You have given the figures but I am telling you about the feelings of the people of Bihar.

Karan Thapar: But what is more important? Figures are facts and feelings are emotions.

Nitish Kumar: It is not only emotions, these feelings are based on facts. There was a national youth festival organised in Patna. More than 4,000 delegates attended this festival and there was no incident of crime.

Karan Thapar: You are giving me incidents one by one but let me quote to you what former director general of police, D P Ojha, said, "If Nitish Kumar is serious about tackling crime there are two simple things he can do. Firstly, hundred people control the crime syndicates in Bihar, petition the courts, get their bails cancelled and have them transferred out of the state. Why is he not doing it if he is serious?"

Nitish Kumar: I think he is not aware of what we are doing. You know Bihar used have very violent Holis. This time, there were no incidents of crime. Nothing untoward happened.

Karan Thapar: Let me put to you what your own police officials tell us. They say that the measures Nitish Kumar government has taken are farcical. They talk about your surrender and rehabilitation policy. They say it is an attempt to try and get criminals to surrender on cash. What has happened is that no big don has surrendered but many small-time criminals have found an opportunity to make money.

Nitish Kumar: I don't know whom you have spoken to. If you are talking about some retired people then they had ample opportunity during their time to improve the condition. And then there are those who have done nothing during their tenure.

Karan Thapar: How many people have surrendered under your new policy?

Nitish Kumar: In the Kosi belt, 191 people surrendered. The proposal came from that area.

Karan Thapar: But no big dons have surrendered. It is the small-time crooks who are trying to make money after investing in a gun because they want the Rs 2 lakh rehabilitation.

Nitish Kumar: Have you studied the problems of that area? You talk to people there. When I went there for the surrender function, I could see the enthusiasm of the crowd. A vast number of people had attended that function.

Now, about that one retired officer, his comments mean that he is not aware of what is happening. On January 1, there was a kidnapping and murder in Gopalganj district. And within 93 days the accused were convicted.

Karan Thapar: Lets not get into individual details. Lets look at the big picture.

Nitish Kumar: These are not individual details. This is how one can know what is happening in the state.

Karan Thapar: 42 per cent of your own JD(U) MLAs, 52 per cent of the MLAs of your allied party, the BJP, face criminal charges. People ask that if Nitish Kumar is serious then can he give a guarantee that the law will prevail against every MLA who faces a criminal charge or will he protect them?

Nitish Kumar: I am not going to protect anybody. The law will take its own course, but your figures are totally incorrect.

Karan Thapar: No, they are from the affidavits filed by the MLAs themselves.

Nitish Kumar: What is the affidavit?

Karan Thapar: The affidavits refer to the actual charges they face.

Nitish Kumar: You people combine all the figures. Those who are arrested during political agitations, cases are registered against them also. Do you know how many people are booked under serious offences?

Karan Thapar: Sixteen individuals from the JD(U) alone have been booked under serious offences.

Nitish Kumar: I am not going to indulge in arguments. However, there might be few people against whom serious charges are there.

Karan Thapar: I had asked you a simple question. Are you protecting these people?

Nitish Kumar: No, not at all.

Karan Thapar: Then, why have you transferred cases against Prabhunath Singh for abduction and murder and his brother from Hazaribagh to Bhagalpur? Is it to protect someone who is today the leader of your party in the Lok Sabha?

Nitish Kumar: No, we have not transferred any case.

Karan Thapar: But, the press says you have.

Nitish Kumar: No, it must be under certain court orders. The government cannot transfer such cases.

Karan Thapar: The press has said so. You have never denied it?

Nitish Kumar: I don't know.

Karan Thapar: Even in terms of handling ministers in your government who face charges, you have taken contradictory positions. Let me give you an example. JD(U) leader Jitan Ram Manjhi was sacked from your cabinet within hours of being sworn in.

Nitish Kumar: Yes.

Karan Thapar: Yet, there are seven other people in your cabinet who face charges including, Minister of state for Industries, Gautam Singh, who is accused of attempt to murder.

Nitish Kumar: No, no. These were the charges during the elections. We have examined the case.

Karan Thapar: But, he himself has declared it.

Nitish Kumar: When the issue was raised I had personally examined it.

Karan Thapar: Now, let me bring up something else. People say that the biggest source of crime in your state is the presence of private armies. And the biggest private army is the Ranvir Sena. Yet, it is said that instead of curbing and controlling the private armies, Nitish Kumar has gone and scrapped the Amir Das Commission just as it was coming close to completing a report on one of the worst massacres in recent times.

Nitish Kumar: This is rubbish. This is an exercise in falsehood. We have not done anything to the Amir Das Commission. The commission has been working on the matter since 96-97.

Karan Thapar: But, you terminated it.

Nitish Kumar: No, during President's rule, this commission was given its last extension. We haven't done anything.

Karan Thapar: But, Amir Das said to the Telegraph on May 3, "I finished my final hearing. I was about to write my report. All I needed was a few months more yet Nitish Kumar denied it. He never met me, never discussed the report or asked where I have reached on it. He simply cut the commission off.

Nitish Kumar: Why should I do all these things?

Karan Thapar: The press says that you were worried about the report. It said that the report would indict your ministers and senior BJP leaders. And the report would indict 37 top politicians according to CNN-IBN. Were you protecting them?

Nitish Kumar: But we are nowhere in the picture. Last extension was given during President's rule up till January I think.

Karan Thapar: But, he was very close to finishing his report.

Nitish Kumar: Who says?

Karan Thapar: Amir Das himself said that to the Telegraph on May 3.

Nitish Kumar: I don't want to indulge in arguments on these things. Just for the sake of record I am answering this question. My government is not involved. He was given the last extension during President's rule and the matter is over.

Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that the press says that BJP leaders, SK Modi, Nand Kishore Yadav, Murli Manohar Joshi, allies of yours, and members of your government could have been indicted by the report and that is why you scrapped it.

Nitish Kumar: But why didn't the commission submit its report? I have been informed by the administration that he had (Amir Das) given an assurance that he will finish his work on time. The previous government had also given a number of extensions.

Karan Thapar: The interesting thing is that you scrapped the Amir Das report and at the same time you have instituted a second enquiry into Bhagalpur.

Nitish Kumar: No, that is not the second enquiry. It is a separate enquiry.

Karan Thapar: But aren't you playing politics. You instituted a Bhagalpur enquiry because it will put pressure on the RJD. You removed the Amir Das enquiry because your upper-caste and Bhumihar supporters stand to benefit.

Nitish Kumar: Please correct yourself. We have not done anything to the Amir Das enquiry. On the request of the commission, last extension was given during President's rule. And that expired during our tenure so it is not our fault. After so many extensions if a commission is not able to submit its report then they should be questioned and not us.

Karan Thapar: After so many extensions, what was the harm in one more particularly when your critics say that what the Amir Das commission proves is that Nitish Kumar's Government is under the influence of the upper-caste and the Bhumihars.

Nitish Kumar: No such proposal has come to us. The commission got its extension and now it is over. Amir Das is indulging in politics.

Karan Thapar: Is that why you scrapped the commission? Because you were scared that he might be getting close to your allies.

Nitish Kumar: I have not scrapped the commission.

Karan Thapar: Your critics say that in scrapping the Amir Das commission, Nitish is showing that he is under the influence of the upper-caste and the Bhumihars.

Nitish Kumar: I am not acting under anybody's pressure.

Karan Thapar: Three people have been named as big influences in your government and they are all big Bhumihar names. They say that you act under the pressure of Additional Director General of Police, Abhayanand, Advocate General PK Sahi and JD(U) leader Lallan Singh.

Nitish Kumar: What kind of questions are these. Are you trying to say that a police officer is playing a role in my decisions? However, he is a very competent officer, I have full faith in the advocate general and the third person is the president of my party.

Karan Thapar: So, the conclusion is that you had said that you would enforce law and order in Bihar but there is complete lawlessness.

Nitish Kumar: (laughs) I am sorry to say but people with twisted minds say such things.

Karan Thapar: So, these charges are all false.

Nitish Kumar: Yes, absolutely. These are expressions of a perverted mind.

Karan Thapar: Is Nitish Kumar the man who runs his government or are there people behind you like the upper-caste and the Bhumihars who influence you?

Nitish Kumar: Not at all.

Karan Thapar: You are your own master?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, why not?

Karan Thapar: Now, lets turn to your plans on developing Bihar? 90 per cent of your people live in the countryside and 70 per cent of them either have no land or holding under one acre. Do you accept that comprehensive land reforms are absolutely essential if these people have to prosper?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, of course. There is no doubt about that and it is part of our programme.

Karan Thapar: If I could interrupt you and point something. You say it is part of your programme but on December 15 you announced that you would be creating a land reforms commission. Five months have passed but you have done nothing about it. You haven't formalised the announcement and you haven't appointed anyone.

Nitish Kumar: That is under process. Just last week the cabinet has approved the entire Common Minimum Programme, which is the agenda for good governance.

Karan Thapar: Five months between the announcement and even today you haven't formalised it. Why are you behaving so slowly?

Nitish Kumar: No, no. We are consulting people.

Karan Thapar: What is there to consult about?

Nitish Kumar: We have to consult about the people with the experts.

Karan Thapar: I am told that there are people who are ready to give you names to put on the land reform commission overnight.

Nitish Kumar: I am going to discuss the entire thing next Sunday.

Karan Thapar: If it has taken you five months and you still haven't announced the commission it can't be a major priority.

Nitish Kumar: No, such things take time. Land reforms is a very serious issue. The programme is for five years. It is not for two or five months.

Karan Thapar: When will the land reforms commission come into being?

Nitish Kumar: Very soon.

Karan Thapar: How long is very soon? Will it happen in 2006?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, why not? I am going to discuss the entire issue on next Sunday. The issue will be sorted much before December.

Karan Thapar: People say the real problem is that the bureaucracy that Nitish works around are themselves land-owners and upper-caste who are not going to encourage land reforms but stifle it.

Nitish Kumar: I think nobody has come forward to create obstacles on the land reforms issue.

Karan Thapar: Do your civil servants support you?

Nitish Kumar: That stage has not come. There is nothing to worry. People have given their mandate and we know how to work.

Karan Thapar: What about the upper-caste supporters? What about the upper levels of the Kurmis and Koeri who support you? Will they support land reforms?

Nitish Kumar: It is not the question of upper-caste or backward caste. It is the question of land reforms. And land reforms are a very wide issue. A number of things have to be done for it. Proper land reforms are required for Bihar's growth and development. Most of the people in Bihar are dependent on agriculture and without agrarian reforms the state cannot prosper.

Karan Thapar: You recognise the importance of land reforms and yet five months after you said you will set up a commission, nothing has happened.

Nitish Kumar: It is very little time. Why are you worried about five months? People have voted us for full five years.

Karan Thapar: So you think you have lots of time and you can keep wasting it.

Nitish Kumar: No, we are not wasting our time. And as far as poor people are concerned, my first decision was to implement employment guarantee programme in the entire state.

Karan Thapar: I grant that. You are the only state to do it and you deserve credit for it.

Nitish Kumar: Exactly. And it involved crores of rupees. Appointing a land reform commission does not involve any money.

Karan Thapar: Except that it requires will, and going against the interests of some of your supporters. Do you have that will to do that?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, of course I have that will. And I urge you to have that much confidence in me.

Karan Thapar: I would like to put forth a blunt question to you. You face some of the most difficult tasks and challenges as the Chief Minister of Bihar, not just in terms of land reforms but in terms of bringing investment to Bihar, a state which is starved of investment. Do you think you have the capacity to fulfill the difficult challenges that you face?

Nitish Kumar: Time will answer these questions. I am not going to boast about anything. We have challenges and we have taken up a very difficult task -- from land reforms to empowerment of the downtrodden to inviting investments and improving law and order. You would be surprised to know that even basic institutional arrangements were missing when I took charge of the state. I have to resurrect everything and for that you have to give me some time.

Karan Thapar: I understand that and which is why I am asking you that do you have the strength to do it? Are you confident of achieving your goals? Do you have the stamina to do it?

Nitish Kumar: Yes, why not. Do you know the number of hours I put in everyday?

Karan Thapar: Are you confident that you have the political will and determination to do it?

Nitish Kumar: That is my real strength.

Karan Thapar: People say that Nitish Kumar is the last hope of Bihar.

Nitish Kumar: I am aware of this.

Karan Thapar: If you fail, do you realise what will happen to your state?

Nitish Kumar: This is exactly what I tell everybody. As last hope, people have reposed faith in us so we have to perform. There is no alternative available.